Should we Stay or Should we Go?


Good morning, folks.

My wife and I are having a debate. We have purchased two mugsy units, but have had no updates on Deep Dive for some time. Matt’s posts are contradictory and feel like horoscope readings. People have to fight to get refunds, as the process for those seem to be as efficient as the process to get an actual Mugsy.

I can fully appreciate we live in unprecedented times, and that delays happen due to pandemic. But delays were happening before the pandemic.

Questions for the forum:

  1. Has anyone that has asked for a refund received it? What is the turnaround time from asking for one to receiving it?
  2. Has anyone received their Mugsy?
  3. If anyone has received their Mugsy, how has support been, i.e. for building it and troubleshooting?

We’re looking at pulling out of this within the week unless we hear promising news or straight talk.


So...can we assume this is defunct?
  1. I did before christmas, it took about a week, or a bit more longer than what Matt said, and I think I got it quickly by asking frequently on fb chatt. So he paypaled me the funds instead of the normal way. I might have hinted about making a dispute through my cardholder.

I know of a few others, some have waited over a month to get refunded, other have gotten it quicker. But it’s hard to get any straight answers from Matt during that process, it’s mostly that he’s gonna check and get back, and then forgets to get back
2. As far as anyone knows, or evidence has been given there are 2 units delivered, to active discord channel members. One has started building but due to lack of manual update he hasn’t been able to build anything for about a month or more. The second is waiting for the first to finish his build. (The third mentioned in blog posts haven’t been shipped yet I think.)
3. See last answer. No manual = hard to build.
Support is fair but slow is what’s been told.


Thank you very much for your experience and information, TomFolly.

My wife and I have been worried about Mugsy - it’s a phenomenal concept (why we backed it), but the frequency of meaningful updates is tough to deal with. I can only imagine the difficulties being experienced on Matt’s end (what with NY being a pandemic epicentre.) If he were to provide the investors with good statistics (like how many are 0-25-50-75-100% complete, average number of mugsy unit being worked on at a given period, average time of a build from start to end for a single unit, etc), I’m sure investors would be much happier. As a mechanical engineer, I know I would be as well.

The lack of manual is also disconcerting. I understand that Mugsy is open-source, and so highly modifiable, but there should be some basic “setup” instructions. I cannot understand how one as an investor can be sent a product that has no hard-and-fast manual for initial setup.

All in all, I’m happy that this is a product that has great potential, but I worry about it’s implementation. As someone who has given funds for two units, as well as the height extensions, I would expect greater, more meaningful feedback.

Thank you again!


@TomFolly Thanks for providing your thoughts and insight!
@m0u574ch10 Appreciate your questions/concerns and happy to discuss them. I’m going to be offline all day today but will jump back on the forum tomorrow to answer them. Thanks!


Thank you for the response, @matt. Looking forward to hearing from you tomorrow.


@m0u574ch10 Still a couple of hours from getting back to my desk for emails. Depending on how late it gets, I may push my reply tomo mid-day. I want to make sure I have enough time to cover everything you brought up with the appropriate level detail/care. Thanks!


Thanks again for your questions @m0u574ch10 .

  • We are still extremely early in the delivery phase of the project. We have only three units on the ground currently and am working with those folks on the build and the manual. Realistically, the first significant numbers of confirmed deliveries are not expected until the 23rd-24th of this month. With the majority of units being delivered over the next 6-8 weeks.
  • The manual is a work in progress. It’s probably 60-75% completed. Almost all of the structural and enclosure assembly instructions are completed. The areas that require content and copy are mostly related to the wiring and electronics set up. Obviously, very important sections that require quality instructions. I am currently able to allocate about 8-10 hours a week to the manual. Going by that availability, I plan to have the v1 manual completed somewhere around 4/28-4/29. I’m due to push the latest updates to the github repo and will shoot to have that done in the next 24-48 hours.

I do appreciate the kind words about Mugsy and really do understand the concerns. There are clearly areas where I could use some help running this project. Over the last couple of weeks I have been working more closely with certain backers on testing/assembling Mugsy as well as getting additional help managing the shipping process to resolve some of those blockers.

Most importantly, I have a business partner coming on to manage the day to day ops of the company. This will allow me to focus on what I’m good at, namely Mugsy’s dev and design. Unfortunately, due to Covid, this is on hold until we are able to start meeting/moving freely in NYC again. This has been in the works for a very long time at this point and I wish the process was already completed. Once they are fully on-boarded and running the business side, this project will fundamentally change from just being a great idea with lots of growing pains to a business built on top of a solid foundation of ops and business experience. But you are right, we had issues since well before Covid, so that is not meant to be an excuse for the missed deadlines.

We are still a couple of months from finishing this project but we will absolutely deliver every unit and we will continue improving Mugsy and (fingers crossed)growing from there.

Please let me know if you have any other questions. Cheers!


Hi Matt, could you clarify the following.

3 units on the ground - does that mean that all those stated deliveries, about 40ish, that was said to have happened during september to december of 19 didn’t happen?

And in the process of building with backers, are you saying in contrast to what’s been reported in discord, that they have been able with your help to build more of their units the latest 6 weeks? We have seen images but reports are that it’s on hold due to no manual to build further than a semi frame. If those reports are wrong then it’s really good news


Hi @matt,

Thank you for the in-depth response! I cannot imagine the stress that those in NY are experiencing at the moment, let alone the stress of work and development on top. Thank you for what you’re doing for us.

  • I was under the same impression as @TomFolly re: Sep-Dec deliveries. It’s good to know that there are only 3 units out in the “wild” for test/conceive.
  • If I might trouble you, what quantity of confirmed deliveries are “significant”? Will those that preordered from the website be in the first significant delivery? Or will they be at a later date?
  • Will the DeepDive be updated to reflect that “estimated” delivery dates are not in alignment with the shipping plan? From what I’m understanding, the estimate I’ve been given for the last while is in error. It’s nice that the estimated dates are converging, though I’d rather a date with semideterminate error bars.
  • I can appreciate the difficulty on the compile of a build manual. As Musgy is open-source, will the manual be a standard build, or will it have a number of modifications in it as well?

It’s good to hear that you’re getting logistics sorted so that you can focus on the side of Mugsy you’re passionate about. I think it’s fair to say that no one was expecting the magnitude of a global pandemic to unfold within three weeks, and so delay is understandable.

To be completely transparent, my wife and I have been experiencing a lot of the same feelings as those on the forums, though we’ve been hesitant to pull our support. Your post does allay some of those feelings, though I feel that overly optimistic estimates build a false sense of progress. We’ll have to reevaluate where we’re at come the end of April.

Thank you again for the updates. It means a lot. Stay safe, stay healthy, and stay innovating :slight_smile:


@TomFolly @m0u574ch10 Thanks guys! Gonna be swamped for a few hours so I will jump on these additional questions tomorrow afternoon. Cheers!


sorry for the delay guys, will be a few more hours before I am able to get back to the forum. Cheers!


So I’m curious as there were not any more updates tot he questions asked. My deep dive says the expected delivery is 4/23… isn’t that a bit unrealistic given what you said? I’m a website backer so I would think I’m in the 6-8 week crowd. I’d like an actual accurate update. I’ve been checking deep dive for a year it feels like and always seeing a couple weeks out just to have that change to no info or a couple more weeks out. I really like this project but I ordered this September 2018… anything you can do to be more upfront and direct with what’s happening and when units will actually ship that’s great. I can’t handle more deep dives that tell me next week when your posts tell me 6-8 weeks


Hi @rysamp,

I checked my Deep Dive expected delivery, and it’s been updated to 23 May. While I only ordered in Sep 19, I feel your pain acutely. I too am a website backer, and would expect to be in the 6-8 week crowd.

My plan, as it stands, is to take this new expected delivery date as @matt’s actual, accurate delivery date and, if they have not shipped by then, to pull out of the project entirely. After expressing my concerns about the shipping, I think it is fair to assume that any provided update is an accurate one at this point, as allowing subsequent “couple weeks out” updates with no solid, physical deliverables only encourages this behaviour.

Truth be told, as disappointed early backer of a great idea, I’m surprised more has not been done to calm backers that are pulling out, whether those are “bonuses” or “swag”, invitations to alpha or beta test subsequent modifications of hardware or software, or something of the like.

As I am a Canadian backer, the money I have invested in this project is most likely not going to be refunded at the same rate I purchased it at. I think I might need to file through my credit card to recoup the value of my investment.


Hey guys, will jump on these questions tonight, should be between 9-11. Thanks


@m0u574ch10 Just had to hop on a call for an outage, if it goes too late I will hit this tomo morning, will be around 11/12 at the very latest. Apologies for the delay!


Hey man, not to be a jerk or anything, but literally every time something comes up and it’s pushed out. Do what you gotta do, but does it really take this long to update us? I want this project to succeed but based on all the comments it’s not going to be easy to get a refund or to know when we’ll actually get our units. It’s been weeks of us waiting for some kind of update. I think we all want you to succeed but you gotta help us out too…



Here’s my take on it.
As long as the promised answer includes solid info on the things asked for - not vague descriptions that basically says nothing tangiable, the reply is welcome whenever it arrives. As of now most of the updates are in the same ballpark as in late fall of 2019 with a lot of promises and missed timelines. To quote yourself in the beginning of 2020: "It’s been pretty obvious to myself and lots of you that I have been extra flakey with my updates and time estimates over the last few weeks. I feel like it was caused by several things- ineffective handling of the project’s increasing stress levels, shitty time management, overly hopeful expectations and a need to step away and focus on something else for a random day here and there.

I am aware that when I do not follow through with simple scheduling it impacts my credibility and your ability to have trust in future updates. At a time when I still have so many units to deliver, sticking to the “easy things” is extra important.

So I would like to start fresh this new year by acknowledging my weak spots and internal blockers so I can put my best foot forward for Mugsy and all of you, Mugsy’s amazing supporters. Talk is cheap and I won’t start with more promises. I think it would be better for my work, communications and goal completion to speak for itself over the coming days and weeks."

You had a strong start, but we’re still in April and now we are back to promises and deadlines missed, no real info anymore on why units aren’t moving - what’s the holdup on the aftership delivery?
I think since January there’s been at least two promises of shipments moving a month - only to be revoked when scheduled delivery dates has come and gone.

The thing is, surely by now things are getting more complicated due to Corona and different lockdowns etc all over - and no one is going to hold you accountable for the difficulties that comes with that, but theese things was already piling up to a problem before the outbreak and with no real explanation.

Is it money? Time? Commitment? Personal issues?
All most of us ask is straight answers to the questions given for a long time, because as of now a growing sense of that there’s something you aren’t telling is going around.
Take care, and reply whenever you really have the time - don’t promise a reply until then


Thanks again guys.

Here is a breakdown of the main blockers that are impacting my ability to get us across the finish line right now:

  • Limited output bandwidth. This is due to a couple of different things. First, the assistance that was coming on board to help with fulfilment and day to day ops management is on hold due to the lockdown in NYC. This help was meant to let me focus on fulfillment while they handled project management, controlled times lines and expectations, handle all support requests and more. Finishing up is much more work than I can handle efficiently on my own. Things are getting done and progress is being made, but milestones and work are scattered and unfocused. The second thing limiting output is that my day job is currently taking up more hours during lockdown than previously. This a temporary blocker while the dev team has been refocused to keep ops going.
  • Burnout is definitely a factor and the level of stress is currently very high. Since I’m not making the progress I want to be making it gets harder to focus on certain things, which then results in more stress, repeating the cycle. This seems to impact communications more than actual physical output.

I don’t want to blame the lockdown , because obviously we had issues before this all started. But it definitely has impacted the solutions I was working on to resolve those issues.

Where I could really use help right now:

  • The single most important thing that would increase my output and help manage timelines/expectations is having some help with project management. This is where my day to day progress breaks down. I’m juggling so many things that I feel like I’m just randomly grabbing at tasks and never really getting far enough to gain any tangible results. I think this is somewhere that community members with the right experience can help me formulate a public project plan. Im not sure what this would look like and I am open to suggestions. I think a good place to start is for me to share a list of all remaining tasks/requirements/blockers and my daily time availability. From there we can create a game plan based on priority and impact that I can work from.

Other Bits:

  • We have not run out of money, but it’s tight. It’s mostly
    allocated to shipping costs at this point.
  • We have inventory to complete units.
  • Refunds are honored but sometimes take additional time because those funds have already been allocated to parts.

I think there is a lot more to discuss on how we can increase forward progress but will leave it here for now. I am 100% dedicated to finishing this project but I acknowledge that I could use some help to get across the finish line.

Here are my next steps for the next 24 hours and tomorrows update:

  • create a public list of tasks/blockers
  • create a weekly/daily bandwidth estimate
  • release any software and build manual updates that have not yet gone live
  • begin initial discussions for creating a public time line with community members that includes verifiable milestones and communication requirements.
  • a breakdown on previous shipments and an update to all totals

Ok, thats all i have for right now. I will be AFK for most of today but will be online tomorrow starting at 7/8 pm to field any additional questions and start discussion/planning/working on the public timeline and project management improvements.

Thanks again for your questions and support. It is appreciated.



Hi Matt, thank you for replying and sharing that. Personally I still believe in the project.

Once you have had the chance to detail what you need assistance with, if there is anything in the list I can help with, I will.


Thanks for typing this all out for us. I think I speak for most of your discord users in that our highest priority is shipping. A lack of deliveries after hundreds of boxes were supposedly packed and waiting in amazon warehouses months ago is what adds fuel to the fire of skepticism. If you focus on getting those boxes delivered it will restore a lot of the goodwill. Then you can continue to work on the software and refine the build manual. Plus, once a box has been delivered that’s 1 more person who can’t / won’t be asking for a refund.